different regional rhythms

topic posted Sun, May 24, 2009 - 6:00 AM by  Alex
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Hi all, tried looking this up in past posts... some of the people out there that have been around for 30 years or more say that some of the rhythms have changed names over time. Experiences with this?

Also, I would like people to post the favorite rhythms of your area. Please write them out on the DTK notation if possible. For instance, I have been to places where we played totally different versions of chiftiltelli. One drummer actually claimed I was not even playing chifty until another person confirmed that I was. I ran into a drummer from Minnesota who did not know any of the rhythms we played in my neck of the woods. So... thought I would send out this post. :)

Thanks!
posted by:
Alex
Omaha
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  • Re: different regional rhythms

    Sun, May 24, 2009 - 9:54 AM
    As with anything else, who's saying and playing what is key. Who knows...maybe you weren't playing ciftetelli but were playing waqta wa nos? ( Sorry, can't spell this morning.) People think they are playing maqsoum and are actually playing nothing. Other people seem to think ayoub is actually a 7 15/16 when it's not, and so forth. DTK notation won't help unless you employ some system to accurately shift pulses to the correct place.

    According to Reda Darwish, it's all feel, and only feel, which actually dictate what rhythm you are playing. And you aren't going to notate that.
  • Re: different regional rhythms

    Tue, May 26, 2009 - 4:48 PM
    People have spent entire careers studying such things, but it all depends on how you want to approach the general question of what makes a rhythm (or a particular name for a rhythm) legitimate. One example might be a "maksum" rhythm. The same exact rhythm has existed in Ottoman classical with the name "düyek" for centuries, and it's still taught in conservatory that way and referred to as such by turkish musicians. In Egypt, on the other hand, the term "maksum" is used, but sometimes when the same exact rhythm is played at a much faster tempo the name "fellahi" or "bamb" is used. And that's just one rhythm! Now you take a few hundred random americans from all over the country who travel to somewhere like Egypt or Turkey and learn this rhythm and you end up with a whole bunch of people using different names depending on who first taught them or how the rhythm was first presented to them. And then many of them add embellishments or inadvertent changes to the rhythm and perhaps change the names over time by shortening them, or changing them so they are easier to pronounce or spell.... and then everyone gets together in the woods in Minnesota and argues about the names! :)

    But i digress. I did want to suggest something I read recently that discusses the changes over the past 70 years in some of the names and variants of certain Turkish Roman rhythms. It's the dissertation of Dr. Sonia Tamar Seeman, she's an ethnomusicology professor at UTexas Austin, and she spent about 4 years in Turkey studying Roman culture and Music. Her dissertation "'You're Roman!': Music and Identity in Turkish Roman Communities" includes some of her findings concerning the possible origin of the stereotypical Roman 9/8 rhythm, as well as the changes in the common names for the most popular roman rhythms and the typical tempo in which they were played during different eras. You can purchase her dissertation on proquest (or get it for free if you are a univeristy student with access) or maybe contact her directly for a copy. It's a huge piece of work (about 400 pages) but its one of the best resources on Roman percussion and changes in the repetoire in recent history!
    • Re: different regional rhythms

      Tue, May 26, 2009 - 11:28 PM
      Nick, "Roman" and not "Romani" or "Rom"? The Turkish 9/8s that I've heard have been described as "oriental" or "Romani", but never "Roman".
      • Re: different regional rhythms

        Wed, May 27, 2009 - 4:07 AM
        i can't answer for nick, but i'll try! ; ) here in turkey the turks say 'roman' (accent on second syllable) when talking about the rom. that may be why he wrote that.

        ooh, i keep meaning to get Sonia's book... i'll have to do it now. thanks for the reminder nick.
        • Re: different regional rhythms

          Wed, May 27, 2009 - 4:14 AM
          nick can you give a link for the page to buy her book? found the site but cannot find her or the book.
          • Re: different regional rhythms

            Wed, May 27, 2009 - 5:17 AM
            I recently ordered Scott Marcus' excellent dissertation on Arab Music Theory from UMI Dissertation Services (www.il.proquest.com). An unbound dissertation runs about $45.00 with options ranging from download to bound with cost varying appropriately. I checked and Dr.
            Seeman's dissertation is listed as available. The site appears to be geared to libraries and hard core researchers, so it isn't the most user friendly -- look for (or just Google) "Dissertation Express."
            • Re: different regional rhythms

              Wed, May 27, 2009 - 7:29 AM
              Argh, ethnomusicological dissertations! Lots of helpful info and insights, but ... the language and the terminology can become so freakin byzantine with obscure academic concepts and theories and references to the works of sociolinguists and post modern narratologists, etc, etc ... Timothy Rice's "May It Fill Your Soul" is still one of the few studies on the Bulgarian gaida in English that I've been able to find, but some chapters are almost unreadable to the layman musician such as myself who might not be as interested in the Post-Fordist-NeoMarxist-ParaFeminist-PostBarthesian Lorenz Curve-defying Embourgeoisement thesis-based meta-narratives of Balkan folk music (the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, notwithstanding) ...
              • Re: different regional rhythms

                Sun, June 7, 2009 - 7:18 PM
                Geoff, you'll have to make two or three t-shirts out of this post with all the hyphens. I don't think it'll all fit on one, like the phrase for the Kast Iron Doumbek.

                :-)

                I don't know how to make umlauts.
      • Re: different regional rhythms

        Wed, May 27, 2009 - 10:25 AM
        Yes, David's spot on there. In Turkey they refer to themselves as "Roman" (with the second syllable accent), and so that's been adopted as the most PC name to use (instead of the more derogatory "çingene" which is roughly equivalent to the term "gypsy" in english). "Rom" (for singular) and "Roma" (for plural) can also be used as adjectives in English, such as "Rom music" or "Roma musicians" if you prefer, too. "Oriental" is probably a misleading term in relation to Roman music and culture and I'd avoid using it. The turkish version, "oryental", is used for things like "oryental dansi" (what westerners call bellydance) and referred to other things eastern, but I think it would be a mistake to use this word to describe anything Roman.
  • Re: different regional rhythms

    Wed, May 27, 2009 - 12:34 PM
    Oh, and one more thought about the use of certain rhythms changing over time:

    Scott Marcus (the same guy who Marvin mentioned earlier in this thread) published a book several years ago called "Music In Egypt", which is a great resource on all aspects of Egyptian music. In one part of his book he reviews popular rhythms (baladi, maksum, wahda, zaffa wedding rhythm etc.) and there was a page or so discussing how sometime around the 1980s, the "sa'idi" rhythm replaced the "baladi" and "maksum" as the predominant rhythm in popular music, and the others have since been more typically relegated to being used as variations within the "sai'di". Prior to this "maksum" rhythms, alternating with a "wahda" during which time a singer usually sings (i.e. Oum Kalthoum, Farid Al Atrash era pieces) were more the norm. He also includes a CD with audio recordings of most of the rhythms individually and with ensembles!

    It's an interesting read, and probably a bit more accessible than Dr. Seeman's if you aren't that interested in conceptual discussion and more esoteric subject matter.
  • Re: different regional rhythms

    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 9:41 AM
    I finally made it back on to Tribe to read the posts! I think it got a little more academic than I was looking for but great responses!

    I would still like to know what your top ten rhythms are. Please notate in the DTK format if you think it is something unusual.

    Thanks!
    • Re: different regional rhythms

      Sat, June 6, 2009 - 9:53 PM
      and what was this drummer-from-minnesota's name?

      top ten rhythms:

      Ayoub
      Malfuff
      Chiftetelli (the slow one, not the faster one that sounds like a beat displaced Saidi)
      Sama'i Thaqil
      Masmudi Kabir
      Masmudi Seghir
      Maksoum
      Wahda
      Saidi
      Saudi (3+3+2)
      • Re: different regional rhythms

        Sun, June 7, 2009 - 5:58 PM
        I`ll probably catch some shit for this, hehe..... but if everybody in here played their drums half as much as they type, the music world would be evolved much further than it currently is. Just an observation...don`t get yer pannies in a wad. Not directed at any one person. . so go practice your drumming and get off the computer.
        • Re: different regional rhythms

          Mon, June 8, 2009 - 11:38 AM
          "so go practice your drumming and get off the computer"

          lol.... sage words of advice there. Although I'm of the view that a lot of this conversation might not make you a better drummer but it will make you a more well rounded human being. :-)

          Would any of you guys be interested in a tribe devoted to academic discussion? (research from ethnomusicology, historical musicology, anthropology, arab and turkish music theory etc.) ? I'm planning a trip to Istanbul in a few months to to do a series of interviews with darbuka players on social issues, musical perception, as well as specific percussion techniques and the like, and I was looking for an outlet to discuss that a bit as well as some of the nerdier more esoteric work on the subject of Near Eastern music research. I'm thinking it's stuff thats a bit less performance oriented and a bit denser than what the typical musician might be into, but maybe a tribe devoted to Near Eastern music research might be a good forum for it...
          • Re: different regional rhythms

            Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:16 AM
            Go for the new tribe. I don't think I'll have much to add that other people here can't already cover. I'm an okay drummer, but I'm short on the ethnomusicological book knowledge stuff so go ahead and drop some knowledge and I'll be happy to soak it up. :)

            R
          • Re: different regional rhythms

            Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:26 AM
            Wouldn't the Middle Eastern Music tribe be a good place for discussions like this?

            One way or another, I'm looking forward to it. Middle Eastern Percussion and, to a lesser extent, Dumbek Fever, are both great tribes for technical advice and creative inspiration, but the ethnomusicological dimension of what we do rarely comes up.
      • Re: different regional rhythms

        Mon, June 8, 2009 - 1:41 PM
        That's a great list. I think I hear Karsilama (9/8) and Bolero more often than Wahda and Saudi. I'm on the west coast.
        • Re: different regional rhythms

          Mon, June 22, 2009 - 11:17 AM
          Yeah, that would look similar to what we play the most. Being SCAdians, though, there have been a couple non-traditionals that have become standbys, as well.

          Ayub
          Malfoof
          Maqsum
          Saidi
          Baledi
          Chiftitelli (slow)
          Karsilama
          Syrto
          Chaka
          Durge (commonly our closer)


          I went to see another local group play the other night and I'd say a good half of their songs used Maqsum. There were enough tempo and subtle technique differences, though, that if I hadn't been specifically paying attention to it, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. They still sounded very good. :shrug:
          • Re: different regional rhythms

            Mon, June 22, 2009 - 12:57 PM
            Never heard anything called durge or chaka and isn't syrto really the same as malfoof?
            • Re: different regional rhythms

              Mon, June 22, 2009 - 6:20 PM
              "Never heard anything called durge or chaka and isn't syrto really the same as malfoof?"


              ding ding ding! Yup they are, and an Ayuub and a Zar are the same also (depending on where you're from).
              • Re: different regional rhythms

                Tue, June 23, 2009 - 1:54 AM
                "Never heard anything called durge or chaka and isn't syrto really the same as malfoof?"


                ding ding ding! Yup they are, and an Ayuub and a Zar are the same also (depending on where you're from)."

                As far as rhythmic notation, yes. As far as the intention, or the flavor, if you will, of the rhythms mentioned, it's different IMO.

                Syrto is more centered on the beat, and perhaps lighter or more airy, whereas malfuff seems to me to be hurrying slightly forward and usually has a lot more umph.
                • Re: different regional rhythms

                  Tue, June 23, 2009 - 7:55 AM
                  yeah i'm with you on that isfahani. it's the same as with languages, those subtleties are difficult to hear. should we worry about it too much? probably not. but a native is going to hear it. how many times have i heard this here in istanbul: "you sound good. not Turkish, but good." ; P
                • Re: different regional rhythms

                  Tue, June 23, 2009 - 10:06 AM
                  Yes, I cannot really see how Syrto can be considered the same as Malfoof. Different country, different time signature, and most importantly, very different feel (at least the way I was taught it). To me, it's like if I accidently try to use the key to my wife's car in my own. Yeah, it'll fit in the ignition, but it won't start the car. Just because you could fit Malfoof's 3 beats into some other rhythms (the second half of Syrto, the first half of Sombati, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean they're the same thing. I wrote a song on baglama specifically for Malfoof and I'm certain that if I played it to Syrto it would not have the same feel (and probably wouldn't work as well). Normally, I would bow to the vastly greater knowledge and experience, but I'm just going to have to be the stubborn student this time! :-)

                  As for Chaka and Dirge, as I implied earlier, they are indeed SCAdian. Actually, I'm fairly certain Chaka was originally written by Daveed (David Korup) and he even recorded it on the album "Seeds of Time" (with Billy Woods). It's a fun 12/8 (6/4?) that we used to play more when we had 6-8 members (we're down to 4 core members now, which I think sounds better, but that's another story) and we'd do it as a percussion piece.
                  Roughly half would play djembe and the others doumbek and then the rhythm would be split into two parts. At the lead drummers signal, the doumbeks would play the first half of the rhythm and the djembes the second for a couple of measures, we'd switch for a couple, and then everyone would come back in again. Not that fancy, I guess, but it was fun. I'm looking at actually putting music to it right now, so that we can get more use out of it.

                  Chaka: D•tktkT•tktkD•tkT•tkD•T

                  Dirge's origins are a bit murkier (at least to me). It's another fun one to play with a lot of drummers (sometimes we're joined on stage by former members or friends from another troupe), as each person gets their own "mini-solos" (fills, really) and it's always fun seeing what the more experienced and/or creative drummers will pull out of their bag of tricks (or hind end)! We just take turns going down the line and then it'll jump back to the first person.

                  A lot of drummers mean that you'll probably only have a couple of turns (lest you bore the crowd), and I have a few fills worked out that are always handy. Sometimes, however, we do it with just a few people and then things can get tricky. By the time my fourth or fifth turn is approaching, I'm usually thinking, "OK, what the @$%# should I do THIS time?!?". Sometimes necessity is the mother of invention and I end up hoping I "can remember that later". Othertimes, though, I more resemble Iccarus and go down in a heap of flames. Still, I think the fun in it is exchanging creative ideas, so I'd rather go for it than just play it safe with a four count or something, as a couple of the less creative/ adventerous folks do (even in practice!).

                  This is how Dirge (4/4) is written on the rhythm sheet I have (it ain't short, btw!)...

                  dktKtkdktKtkTktkdktKtkdktKtkTktk
                  dktKtkdktKtkTktkdktKtk---solo-----

                  The way we play it, though, there's actually another doum (the one before the fill starts) that is played by everyone except the soloist. In other words, your fill is actually starting on the doum. Clear as mud? ;-)

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: different regional rhythms

                    Tue, June 23, 2009 - 11:26 AM
                    Johannes, several questions for you: the way you wrote Chaka is as an 11 1/2, is that correct? On Dirge, am I correct in reading that as the "d" being unaccented doums? And what do you mean that Malfouf has 3 beats? I've never heard that syrto and malfouf are different time signatures. You're running 3-3-2's ( there is a Turkish variation that runs 3-2-3 which is quite fun), the feel is definitely different but the song is what gives the nuance. It would be interesting to hear a drum session of syrto, followed by a malfouf session. Don't think you'd hear much difference. Now, running either of those with 3-2-2's every 4 measures is a good exercise.
                    • Re: different regional rhythms

                      Tue, June 23, 2009 - 12:37 PM
                      Sorry, forgot the last "dot" on Chaka. It's a 12/8 on the sheet I have and appears like this:

                      D•tktkT•tktkD•tkT•tkD•T•

                      Actually, on the sheet - which was compiled by Edric Aziz (Dave, here on tribe) - ALL of the doums are small d's. I changed it to the more common "D" for Chaka, but I got lazy and did it his way on Dirge. Forgive me, I'm on my iPod and have no cut/paste and a very small keyboard! So, treat all the doums as "normal" ones.

                      As for Malfoof, I usually see it considered a 2/4 and Syrto a 4/4. The same in the sense that they're both even, but a different feel generally, which is what I was getting at. And the basic Malfoof is a doum and two teks - so, three beats. Everything else, as far as I know, is just
                      variation.
                      • Re: different regional rhythms

                        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 12:43 PM
                        I love to play the "gypsy groove" that Nevik taught me. The fusion dancers like it for the pops and slides. :-)

                        DkkSkkDk/SkkSkkDk

                        I use S so as not to confuse those that think of P as the muted Ka (half-ka) sound. But, for this groove, the slap should be as hollow and poppy, like a cork, as you can make it. And definitely not overpoweringly loud. Different tempos for different contexts and dancers, as well.
                      • Re: different regional rhythms

                        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 12:55 PM
                        And to echo what was earlier said, Syrto is rather laid back (with the ka on the second beat) and malfoof kind of chugs along (with that first tek being slightly ahead of the second beat). Different feel, for sure.
                      • Re: different regional rhythms

                        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 1:01 PM
                        If you want to personally process malfouf as a 3 beat rhythm, fine, but for communication it makes it confusing. That would make, for instance, both sama'i thaquil and maqsoum 5 beat rhythms, ayoub a 4 beat rhythm, agir Roman a 5 beat rhythm, etc. Thanks for the clarification on the others.
                        • Re: different regional rhythms

                          Tue, June 23, 2009 - 6:19 PM
                          Malfuf is in 2/4. Syrto (or serto) is in 2/4. Ayuub (or Zar) is in 2/4.
                          You can play it as fast or as slow as you want to, but it's still a 2/4 rhythm.
                          When I first started playing, Saiidi was played as a relatively slow to moderate rhythm, but it has replaced Beledi as the new "go to" rhythm for beginners and the new style is to play it lightening quick, but it's still a 4/4 rhythm. I now hear it played very fast at Rakassah (but not in the Arabic clubs).
                          There is some disagreement on Falahi (which I consider to be a 2/4 version of Maqsum) but a lot of Souhail Kaspar students seem to argue that it is still a 4/4 but played very fast........................ this will never be decided here and I can just hear all the disciples arguing about it for ages.

                          I have always heard that the "Chaka" that you are referring to was written jointly by Daveed and Durr many years ago and they based it off of an 8 beat Masmoudi. It is an SCA rhythm.
                          • Re: different regional rhythms

                            Tue, June 23, 2009 - 7:59 PM
                            Well, 2/4 and 4/4 are sometimes a matter of tempo, Jeff. You are the music teacher, I was trained a few decades ago by music teachers. Then there's tradition, or otherwise known as "what most people call it." I'd tend to call Malfoof 2/4 and Syrto 4/4 just because of their different tempos. But the Greeks play lots of stuff real fast, including Syrto. Mark Varelas of Wine & Alchemy calls his favorite rhythm Syrto or Serto, but in their songs, it's played Malfoof speed, without the the double ka strokes. AH!! What a tangled web we weave.

                            Souhail's felahi is a real fast 4/4 from the finger rolls into One. Whereas, the Youtubes I've seen of the guys in North Africa, they just play it straight up 2/4. Then there's different ways to play it. Ramzy (and Jamal Mohamed) go DKtKDkTk, and Souhail and Issam go DSkSDkSR~. Souhail's and Issam's Ayuub is played in a slow to medium tempo D-kkKDkS- (What I call Zaar, what Karim calls something else, which I can't remember right now.) Whatever.

                            And the Arabic pop tunes!! GAH! Don't get me started. Blazing fast Saiidi, malfoof and D--KD-T- until your ears bleed. It's amazing what you can do with a MIDI file these days, huh?

                            But have you ever seen Bozenka do the folkloric style Saiidi? Achingly slow, if you haven't. The woman can hang in the air like Spiderman. Hahaha!

                            I just think ya have to play what you can play well, call it what most people in your area call it, especially the knowledgeable dancers (if there are any), and not be absolute about it.

                            I guess there's no absolutes, which makes it interesting to study.
                            • Re: different regional rhythms

                              Tue, June 23, 2009 - 8:28 PM
                              Malfuf: DkkTkkTk Serto: D kT kTk
                              Beledi: D D kkT D kkT kk Basic Beledi: D D T D T (aka Masmoudi Saghir)

                              It's the same kind of difference. The Serto is the same rhythm as the Malfuf (or Leff)

                              Here's a brain twister for you:
                              I play with a lot of Greek bands for weddings and parties and when I first began doing it a couple of years ago they asked me to play a Ciftitelli and I played what I know as a Ciftitelli and they all looked at me and asked :"What is that?" Then they tapped out the beat that they know as Ciftitelli and it went like this:
                              D T kk T D kk T kk
                              I said: "That's a Maqsum" and they said: "No! That is a Ciftitelli!"
                              So I asked around to a lot of other Greek musicians and sure enough, a Maqsum is what the Greeks call a Ciftitelli.

                              Then I really understood the real lesson to be learned as you study ethnic rhythms. There is no universal standard. Every area has its own variations and names................. and they'll all argue that theirs is the "right way".
                              • Re: different regional rhythms

                                Tue, June 23, 2009 - 9:58 PM
                                Jeffrey, regarding Syrto (take THAT, dead horse!): what you listed is only half of the rhythm I know as Syrto (or Serto). This is how Jas lists it (which matches the way I learned it)...

                                D---k-D---k-T-k-|
                                D---k-T---k-T-k-|

                                The "1-+-2, etc." didn't line up, so I erased them, but you get the drift. Maybe this will help explain why I just can't accept that it's the same thing as Malfoof (or maybe not)! :-)
                                • Re: different regional rhythms

                                  Tue, June 23, 2009 - 10:15 PM
                                  What you listed is a Khaliji in the first measure followed by a malfuf in the second measure. Both of those are 2/4 rhythms. It is a variation that is specific to Jas's site. Get a copy of "The Dancing Drum" by Issam Houshan. On that he plays Serto which is:
                                  D kT kTk D kT kTk D kT kTk D kT kTk

                                  A Khaliji rhythm is usually played:
                                  D kD kTk D kD kTk D kD kTk D kD kTk
                                  but it can also be played:
                                  DkkDkkTk DkkDkkTk DkkDkkTk DkkDkkTk

                                  Do you see how this is the same?

                                  That horse ain't dead yet! :)
                                • Re: different regional rhythms

                                  Tue, June 23, 2009 - 11:14 PM
                                  Jeffrey, I was actually answering your question before I knew you asked it. LOL, of course, my posts wouldn't take 20 minutes to type if I had put the kids to bed before I started. Yes, we do play it in a slow, "dreamy" way (good description). For lack of an actual teacher, I try to supplement my learning with as much online research as I can (which includes all of you), a couple videos, Nevik's Tekronomicon, etc. Having a limited budget and limited time make it hard, but I certainly do realize that not all of my answers will be found within SCA circles, don't worry!

                                  Of course, even if I had more time, I don't really know the local (Phoenix) scene well enough to check out more authentic music groups (or even if there are any around here). There are occasional workshops, but again, there's the money thing (I've missed both Raquy and Souhail in
                                  the last six months). Still, you're right, Jeffrey, I could probably find SOMETHING more if I put some effort into it. Even if I discover some bands to go see, I could maybe learn something through simple observation (and hear some good music in the process.

                                  The funny thing, I actually get critisized and lectured for doing things "wrong" by some of the drummers (and dancers!) in our troupe if I stray from Edric's rhythm sheet. Like me, many of them started drumming in the SCA. Unlike them, I don't see our rhythm sheet as some Holy Bible and THE way to play things, but rather as one way of many. I was actually stopped by a fellow drummer recently (who was observing, not playing) because I was playing Karsilama "wrong" and putting an extra doum in it. It was at a club after one of our shows and we were sitting around on the patio. Some dancers wanted to dance, one of them had a drum and I still had mine, so the two of us started playing for them for fun. My friend is then anal enough about how things are "supposed to be played" that he makes everyone stop by pointing out my "mistake" (which I think I subconsciously picked up from listening to Nevik's album).

                                  *sigh* Anyone want to take a nice vacation to AZ and spread some knowledge around? It's beautiful this time of year - barely over 100 degrees! (End of thread hijack)
                          • Re: different regional rhythms

                            Tue, June 23, 2009 - 8:51 PM
                            Mark, I didn't really word that right. I didn't mean to say that Malfoof is a "three beat rhythm", but rather that there are three times you physically beat the drum (three "notes", if you will) in the basic rhythm. I hope that's more clear (trust me, if you were in my head right now, it would make perfect sense)!

                            Jeffrey, I agree totally about Falahi (I've referred to it as a 2/4 Maqsum, myself). I'm still not sure about why you'd call Syrto a 2/4, though. I'm not sure I've seen it referred to as a 2/4 before (my sheet from Edric lists it as a 4/4 and I know Jas' site does the same). Sure, you *could* count 1-2, 1-2 when it's played (as you could any even rhythm), but to me, it feels much more natural to count 1-2-3-4 (in
                            other words, four quarter notes).

                            It doesn't matter that much, anyways. I think the difference in placement of that first ka/tek (on the second beat for Syrto, just ahead of it for Malfoof) does more to define the feel of the two rhythms than if you count to two or four.

                            Anywho, in search of more common ground (and to avoid beating that debate further to death), I have a question for the tribe's collective wisdom about another rhythm. Another one of our favourites to play that we inherited from Edric (whom I believe lead the group long before my time) is one that is referred to on our sheets as being a "Middle Eastern 8/8" - but I don't think I've ever seen it listed anywhere else during my rhythm gathering forages on the internet.

                            It's just called "Cabaret" on our rhythm sheet and is written as follows:
                            D•tkD•tkD•D•T•tkD•DkTktkD•T•D•••

                            Anyone recognize this one? Maybe it's just known more commonly by a different name? It's a fun rhythm, but Edric's sheet is the only place I've ever heard ANY rhythm actually called "Cabaret". Thoughts?
                            • Re: different regional rhythms

                              Tue, June 23, 2009 - 9:55 PM
                              Don't get me wrong any of you. I'm not being argumentative here (sometimes it comes across that way on-line because we all write the way we talk and without the inflections it can seem that way). I am agreeing that there are differences in perceptions of rhythms and it is not only regional to places that are indigenous but also here in America.
                              Johannes,
                              Did you learn Serto in the SCA? (That's where I originally learned ME drumming, but I've been a drummer all of my life). Once I got involved with actual Arabic and Balkan musicians, a lot of the SCA myths about correct rhythms faded away.I realized that there were similarities and very specific regional and personal interpretations of the rhythms by the "real" masters.
                              I was originally taught Serto from SCA drummers this way:
                              D kT kTk D kS kTk (this is an SCA specific notation)
                              They played it very slow and it had a drifty and dreamy feel to it. The way that the Greek bands play it, it's played at the same tempo as malfuf.
                              I've played with a number of Greek musicians and it is always played at the tempo of a malfuf.

                              We tend to project "Western" sentiments on all of the rhythms and for that matter all of the music that is categorized as "world". It is not as universally "formal" as European conservatory music is (though in some places it may be). Much of what we learn especially for our goblet drums, is from an ethnic "folk" perspective. I hate to shatter any illusions, but our goblet drums (derbekkes, dombeks, darbukas) are not "court instruments", they are folk instruments. In the last century, the goblet drum has become the primary percussion instrument because of belly dance. There are now very formal ways of playing it that were not necessarily the case in the past. It's rather like the difference between a fiddler and a concert violinist.

                              The names of these rhythms and how they are played vary greatly from place to place. The answer for the serious student is: study them all.
                              It'll be like gathering folk tales. Each new thing you learn will give you a better understanding of the music and the culture, and they'll all be a little bit different. There's a lot to learn and you'll never get it all. There will always be something new to learn and that's what makes it interesting. This doesn't mean that you don't study technique and proper form, but even with that, there will be subtle variations. Study with a master (a real master that is an accepted master) and learn as much as you can about their technique and how they play and call the rhythms. Then expand your scope. Or if you wish, you can stay within a certain genre if that's what interests you. Eventually you will develop your own techniques and style that is correct, but unique to you. (And then you'll have all sorts of educated disciples in another form telling their friends that you're doing everything wrong.) But you have developed. So long as you stay true to certain basic principles your subtle ornamentation and variations will not only be acceptable, but welcomed.

                              I have many SCA drummer friends and I love playing with them, and of course we will argue about certain things but the SCA has changed a lot and there are now many really good drummers there that have trained with masters and there is now great variety. Only playing in the SCA will make you stagnate though. Get out there and learn and play with others. Hang out in Arabic and Turkish and Armenian and Greek clubs and listen. You'll learn a lot. Then bring it back to the SCA and we will all learn.
  • Re: different regional rhythms

    Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:58 AM
    As the perennial late-comer around these parts I'll add my $0.02 long after everyone else has had their say... :)

    I haven't been around long enough to have much to say about the rhythm naming thing. What I can say is that it is entirely common to talk to both American drummers *AS WELL AS* drummers from all over North Africa, the Middle East, the Balkans and beyond all having different names for what is essentially the same rhythm. Part of that (I'm guessing) is regional language/dialect differences, and another part (again with the educated postulating) is that there just isn't a standard naming convention that all drummers learn.

    If you're really into rhythm-name-collecting there's probably a lifetime's worth of anthropological work that could be done on that subject alone, and even doing that is really just fossilizing the current state of vocabulary onto paper. I'm sure that names *and* the way the rhythms themselves are played will change substantially over time as the tradition continues to spread, morph, and be adopted/absorbed into other types of music. Sort of the same way languages and words themselves do over time. Hmm.... I think there's a PHd thesis lurking somewhere in there. :)

    Mark is also right on with saying that the feel of the various rhythms matters as much as the strokes/tones used to make them, and both of those things probably matter much more than what you call the thing. Just sayin'.

    As far as favorite rhythms go, it depends on what "scene" we're talking about. If it's the SCA/Ren-Faire "bellydance" drumming crowd, I'd probably say that Baladi, Maqsoum, Saiidi, Ayoub, Malfuf/Leff, Karachi, Arabic Bolero, Wahda (4-beat rhythm), Wahda Kabira (8-beat rhythm), and Chiftitelli make up about 95% of what is played. (please nobody sue me over the names - that's just what most of the American drummers I know call them).

    If you're talking about the local Iraqi/Chaldean/Assyrian bands the rhythms are pretty different but with some crossover. The local Lebanese and Syrian musicians have their own "favorite rhythms" for their music. There are some smaller Middle-Eastern communities in my area from the various Gulf countries and they've got their own genres of music that have yet again different rhythms. And then there are the 2 musical groups I play with that take rhythms from all over the place so I'd have to include rhythms from Turkey, the Balkans, and India into our top 10 favorites.

    Anyway, there you go. As for me, less type-y, more drum-y and practice-y (Geoff has the right idea there).

    R
    • Re: different regional rhythms

      Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:30 PM
      Quite a post for one describing himself as, "...short on the ethnomusicological book knowledge stuff ." LOL My knowledge in that area would not even register in milligrams ;) Always ready to learn, though.
      • Re: different regional rhythms

        Wed, June 10, 2009 - 8:32 AM
        "Quite a post for one describing himself as, '...short on the ethnomusicological book knowledge stuff .' "

        Naw, I just suffer from Joe Biden Syndrome - you know, too much unsolicited blathering that may or may not be relevant, accurate, or even advisable to utter in the presence of company... :D

        Seriously though, I'm not being falsely modest. I really don't know nearly as much as other people here on Tribe do, let alone some of the percussionists I've met. Plus, I try to avoid giving the impression that I'm any sort of expert or have any sort of claim to authority or accuracy. I'm just some guy who likes ME drumming and music and has managed to pick up a few bits of info along the way.

        I shut up now.

        Rune
        • Re: different regional rhythms

          Wed, June 10, 2009 - 12:13 PM
          Rune, you remind me of a friend and fellow drummer who is close to Deede and I. Unassuming, very knowledgeable, shy, and one shit hot drummer that the public needs to hear a lot more of. I speak of Aaron.

          To paraphrase my boss at work, beat your own drum, dude, 'cause no one else will be it for you if you don't.

          *smiles8
          • Re: different regional rhythms

            Mon, June 22, 2009 - 5:38 PM
            less writey, more drummy

            (boom boom)
            • Re: different regional rhythms

              Wed, June 24, 2009 - 4:05 AM
              mark:
              "( there is a Turkish variation that runs 3-2-3 which is quite fun)"

              this one kills me. after playing 2-2-3 forever this is just hard to do. we played it with the guys. but yes fun. if you're a masochist.

              much less talkey. much more drummy.

              (boom boom boom boom)
              • Re: different regional rhythms

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 5:27 AM
                The Indians play 3-2-3, and I'm given to understand the Persians and Turks adopted many of the things the Indians do, and some folks say many of our rhythms started there. Since they've been doing it for 3000 years or more, there maybe something to that. A good example of the Indian 3-2-3 is on Zakir Hussein's "Rhythmic Impressions" cd.

                And, yes, David, I think it's a pain to play it that way, too, but pain of that sort is fun!
              • Re: different regional rhythms

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 12:51 PM
                woops i meant 3-3-2 !!! not 2-2-3... ; P
                • Re: different regional rhythms

                  Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:22 PM
                  Malfuf
                  1 - + - 2 - + - 1 - + - 2 - + - 1 - + - 2 - + - 1 - + - 2 - + -
                  D kkT kk Tk D kkT kk Tk D kkT kk Tk D kkT kk Tk

                  I really hope this lines up!

                  Middle-Eastern musicians often refer to things like Malfuf as an "8" because it is 3+3+2, but in Western notation it is a 2/4.
                  Sometimes it is equivalent to the beats in Western notation such as in a specific Curcuna that is like this:
                  1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10
                  D k k T k D k T k k

                  This is the type of thing that causes so much confusion when we talk of Western time signatures with Middle-Eastern percussionists.
                  Both are right, but we aren't understanding each other.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: different regional rhythms

                    Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:27 PM
                    Thanks Jeff. You got some good beats.

                    Oh, and try not to worry about the rhythm characters lining up. Just account for each beat evenly, and we can copy and paste to a word processor and change the font to Courier New. The characters will line up that way.
                • Re: different regional rhythms

                  Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:31 PM
                  Let's try this again. I think I may be able to outwit tribe this time, or maybe not, let's see:
                  Malfuf
                  1----+---2----+--
                  D-k-k-T-k-k-T-k

                  I really hope this lines up!

                  Middle-Eastern musicians often refer to things like Malfuf as an "8" because it is 3+3+2, but in Western notation it is a 2/4.
                  Sometimes it is equivalent to the beats in Western notation such as in a specific Curcuna that is like this:
                  1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10
                  D--k---k--T---k--D---k--T---k---k--

                  This is the type of thing that causes so much confusion when we talk of Western time signatures with Middle-Eastern percussionists.
                  Both are right, but we aren't understanding each other.

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