Bolero and Rhumba

topic posted Mon, June 8, 2009 - 2:15 PM by  Todd
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I'd like to know various various interpretations of these rhythms, and your understandings of the differences between the two, or if you perceive any differences at all.

Thanks.

I have my own, and I'll share, but I asked you first. :-)
posted by:
Todd
Dallas
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  • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

    Mon, June 8, 2009 - 7:48 PM
    As a beginner, I was taught that bolero is this: D-tk t-k- D-k- D-k-

    Later, I was taught rhumba as this: D-tk t-k- t-k- D-k-

    I learned the bolero version from a respected SCA-style drummer and the rhumba version from a respected Middle Eastern drummer. I've heard the rhumba version played in some ME songs, but not sure if I've heard the bolero version outside of SCA events. I think they're both fun to play. Curious what other variants people have learned.
    • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

      Mon, June 8, 2009 - 8:43 PM
      Both the Bolero and the Rhumba are fairly recent rhythms to ME music and they are essentially the same as they are in Latin music.
      The Rhumba is slightly faster and the Bolero is slower.
      Elissa, both of those rhythms that you posted are rhythms that I know as Bolero (but of course if played faster, they are Rhumbas)
      More typically in the clubs here in NY, the Rhumba is played like this: ( I will give you the three measures plus the closing figure )
      D k k T k k D k k T k k D k k T k k D k D k P
      but there are many variations.

      Here in NY in the Arabic clubs the boleros are played a lot (they are especially popular in the Egyptian clubs) There is an Arabic song that is very popular called: "Ber Demet Yasimin" that is all about the bolero rhythm (and I don't think these Arabic musicians have ever heard of the SCA)
      • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

        Mon, June 8, 2009 - 8:58 PM
        Wow, that's a big difference!

        Yeah, Bir Demet Yasemin is the song that comes to mind for me with this rhythm.

        When I first learned Bolero, I was expecting it to be like Ravel's Bolero, which I've played the snare and tympani parts on. It's not. ;-)
        • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

          Mon, June 8, 2009 - 10:29 PM
          the Bolero is on of my favorite rhythms to layer on top of other 8's its works especialy well ontop of a chiftitelli

          as for bir demet I have been asked at various time for a bolero or a maqsum as both fit well with it.
          and some of the other musicians i have played with have there own personal preference.
          What ever makes the melody players happy.
          Emyrs
    • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

      Tue, June 9, 2009 - 4:59 AM
      Wow! Elissa, Emyrs, and Jefferey, I'm so envious of the opportunities you have to play with melody musicians. I had to learn it on my own. I got what Carmine calls the bolero from his rhythm sheet. I learned to play the bolero by playing the rhythm part to Omar's song "Passage into Midnight" from his "Free as a Bird" CD Then I got a CD from my girlfriend with two songs, Guiarana and Victor, on E Muzeki (now Wine & Alchemy), and I learned to play rhumba on the castanets with them. From listening close, I learned that malfoof was used to make phrases, because the backup guitar plays 12312312, and the castanets go with that on both rhumba and malfoof. JAS rhythm book makes a point (and so do some others) that rhumba is played fast in 2/4 like malfoof. Then I went back to Passage into Midnight and listened some more, and found that his rhythm has a triplet before 2 instead of the doublet 16ths. WHEW! Who new it was so complicated but it was really fun. I got to practice them with It Is What It Is because of song we played into which I played the two rhythms in between the bass drum and the guy on top.

      So, here's my understanding in notation:

      Rhumba
      1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a
      D-tkT-k-T-k-D-k-

      Bolero
      1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a
      D-t3T-k-D-k-D-k-

      Bolero is played twice as slow, generally speaking, and sometimes it is played in teks instead of dums like rhumba, depending on what the lead melody instrument is.

      Next, how I layer malfoof and rhumba, which I note in 4/4 so as to pick up all the notes.

      1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a
      D-tkT-k-T-k-D-k-
      D-k-k-T-k-k-T-k-

      There’s even a gypsy version of rhumba in 6/8 that plays at light speed. It’s played in Macedonia, Albania and some Balkan places like Kosovo. You’ll hear it in flamenco if the guitar player is real good. They call it Fandango de Hueva.

      1&2&3&4&5&6&
      D-tkT-k-D-k-

      • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

        Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:54 AM
        I'm a flamenco - Fandango de Huelva is no way related to Rumba flamenca.

        FdH is a 6, accents on 1,4,5. Rumba is a 4, accented on 1, 2-and, 4.

        And never the twain shall meet.
        • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

          Tue, June 9, 2009 - 1:25 PM
          And, differing opinions are always welcome.

          :-)
          • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

            Tue, June 9, 2009 - 3:18 PM
            FYI, Todd, Vytas has been involved with flamenco since before you were born and perfoms with some very good people both Spanish and non-Spanish.
            • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

              Tue, June 9, 2009 - 3:40 PM
              I didn't mean to discount what he said. I didn't want to dispute what he said. I didn't mean to come off like I was doing either one.

              Maybe you assumed I was. I hope not.

              I have heard another opinion, so mine wasn't baseless, either. And, they are both valid opinions. I wasn't going to bring it up. It's pointless to debate opinions.
              • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

                Tue, June 9, 2009 - 4:31 PM
                Todd- It's not an opinion, it's about the most fundamental fact there could be, like 4 does not equal 6.
                If I suggested to anybody in Andalucia that FdH and rumba were related they would cross the street to avoid me.

                The origins of the rhythms are completely different too - The fandango roots are in spanish folk song, the rumba roots are cuban, when the gitanos were sailors with Columbus and all those navvies, they brought back what they called cante de ida y vuelta, 'round trip' songs.

                The one place in flamenco where 4's and 6's meet in a very cool way is the rhythm called Tanguillo. The 6 is accented on 1 and 3, the 4 on 2 and 4, and the result is really fun. Look up a tanguillo some time. They play it extensively in Cadiz.

                V
                • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

                  Wed, June 10, 2009 - 5:34 AM
                  Tee Hee! 4's and 6's (and 2s and 3s) meet in the 12/4 family too, Soleares, Alegrias and Buleares, for those that don't know the names.

                  I've heard from my flamenco teacher how those folks in Cadiz can be. *smiles*

                  In Tanguillos, Conte', my teacher, likes to mess with our heads by making us clap in 6 to her doing the 4/4, and vice versa. (Tobias will do that, too.)

                  You said, "when the gitanos were sailors with Columbus " which just goes to illustrate my point, that the rhumba rhythm (and the 12312312) are gypsy grooves, and they are everywhere the gypsies have been. There was no "Cuban" until AFTER the gypsies visited with Columbus, and the Africans came 100 years later. The gypsies like to jazz things up (bulerias being the jazzy version of the 12/4). In my first post, you'll see that to make the rhumba a six, all you have to do is drop 2 16th notes from the middle. Put the Spanish folk accents on it, and MEARA! you have the fandango. :-) The gypsies are like bees, cross-pollinators. And no, I wouldn't say that in Cadiz!


                  By the way, from what I've learned from the guitar players of the fandango de hueva here, the dancer (or the cajon player) puts the accents on 3 and 5, and the guitar player accents on 4 and 6, the four often being either a foot stomp or hitting the guitar body with the hand. One is only accented at the beginning and end of a phrase. The only way to learn it is to do it. I look forward to getting good enough to keep up.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Bolero and Rhumba

                    Wed, June 10, 2009 - 6:32 AM
                    Illustration

                    1&2&3&4&5&6&
                    D-tkT-k-D-k-
                    T-tkD-k-T-k-
                    k-tkt-D-k-T-
  • Re: Bolero and Rhumba

    Thu, June 11, 2009 - 8:03 AM
    I learned the Rhumba that Todd plays. As for the Bolero- I have heard that it s just Rhumba played slow. I have also come across a few other versions of Bolero so I learned those too.

    Many of the dancers I play for actually prefer I play a slow Ravel's bolero. Which I love... we get 3 drummers going in and out of the rhythm.... add a riq and it just sounds very cool.