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karsilama D---T---D---T-T-T-
One of the primary dance instructors 'round here insists that all three eighth notes on the fourth beat be accented. I've noticed other folks play it accenting the first two and not the third, while others accent the last two and not necessarily the first. I enjoy changing up the accents, myself, but I'm decidedly non-traditional.
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Kansas
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 12:38 PMYou've got a lot of dashes in there. With a space in between, maybe this is easier to read:
D - T - D - T T T
There are 9 beats, not 4. So to clarify, you've got a dance instructor saying accent the 7, 8, 9. Roman style usually doesn't accent the 9th beat. Playing the 7, 8, 9 all with teks long enough and fast enough will cause your tek arm to fall off. If you are playing to a melody, the melody usually will dictate if you really need the 3 teks or not. My guess is that the instructor is unfamiliar with Roman 9's. -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 1:22 PMCheck out what the Turks and Roma actually play. Go to YouTube. Find authentic recordings. Listen. Do you hear anyone playing 9 this way (except Americans)?
I realize this is the way that it gets taught. And there is nothing wrong with this rhythm, but we just need to realize that it is not generally how 9s are played in Turkey and among the Roman people. Also, as for nomenclature (as with rhythms such as "laz") there's no rhythm by the name "karşilama" in Turkey. so, if you want to choose that name for that version of 9/8, that's cool. I just wouldn't expect people from the region to know what you are talking about. Just sayin'... -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 3:02 PMi was also a bit confused by the 'fourth beat' thing. i think mark put it well... there are nine beats, it's the 9th that is under debate.
personally, I would call this "Turkish 9/8" . it's not karshilama(a dance), nor is it Turkish Roman - for the above stated reasons.
in standard Turkish tunes most musicians here play it without the 9th beat tek:
D - T - D - T T -
or
D - T - D - D T -
the clapping pattern is 1, 3, 5 ,7 ,8 .
i've also heard turkish roman call this "duz 9/8" meaning 'straight' - it is very straight compared to their 9/8 beats.
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 5:25 PMYou do understand the purpose of creating a lexicon, don't you? -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 10:28 PMWell when all else fails, tell em you want the Rompi Rompi rhythm!
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 11:29 PMI understand the point of a lexicon. It is a massive undertaking and will require "buy-in" by a very large number of people.
You do understand the why you have to go to the source of the music for your lexicon to have any meaning, don't you? -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 12:36 AMIt's not a hot dog, it's a frankfurter... and only those two thousand people that live on the west side of Frankfurt can really make them the right way to begin with... -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 12:47 AMIf you order a bratwurst and someone hands you an Oscar Meyer wiener you ain't gonna be happy. If you want a hot dog, that's fine. But don't tell the stuff that comes out of a plastic package from Safeway is the same a what I can get at the deli. And I never said that only people from the region can do it "right". But let's just be honest about what you're trying to do here, ok? -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:35 AMWell, I am confused.
What are we trying to do here?
I thought we were trying to sort out the basic rhythms, so that we could have an agreed upon lexicon from which to expound with themes, context, instrumentation, ornamentation and variations.
What do you think we are doing Jerry? -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 9:11 AMYes, well, who's "basic rhythms" are we talking about? It's fine if what your are doing is establishing guidelines for yourselves to to facilitate communication. Let's just be clear that it only has utility for those who agree to adopt it. It is a subjective exercise. Folks who come across this and think "oh this is definitive! These guys have codified the rhythms and now we all agree on what we are talking about" will be very confused and surprised when (or if) the come in contact with people outside of this milieu who don't know what they are talking about.
So, I apologize if I walked into the party without knowing the dress code or what the occasion was. I promise not to intrude any longer. have fun!
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:39 PMExactly. We're trying to gather up a list of what rhythms should be widely known, name them, and use that list as a launching point. The lexicon as planned has two volumes: a quick reference that includes the common rhythms and provides music and sticking and names them so we all have a reference point. The second volume then discusses variations and naming issues and so forth.
See the discussion of Bambi, for example. One of the variations will appear as the "quick reference" for Bambi and all of the variations we noted will appear in the extended volume with discussion as to where they're used and such (and probably offer alternative names for variations).
This is not intended to be an exhaustive source to learn all about the rhythms of any particular region blah blah blah. This is purely a folk effort with an eye to introducing people to more exhaustive sources for them to pursue later.
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 5:24 PMNah, it's a 9/8 grouped in four beats-- 2, 2, 2, and 3 eighth notes in the respective beats--in every setting I've heard it played. That's in comparison to three beat 9/8s, for example. It's just like 6/9 being played as a two beat rhythm or a 7/8 as a two beat rhythm and so on.
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 11:26 PMAnd what settings are those? -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:32 PM
Again, I'll point out that we're trying to build a common framework here. The particular rhythm offered up is referred to as "karsilima" by drummers and dancers in a great many places--whether or not the term is accurate. I'm concerned with getting a collection of rhythms that should be commonly known and appending names to them so that drummers far and wide can identify exactly what rhythm they're discussing.
So, even if there really isn't a specific rhythm called "karsilima" in the region where this rhythm originated, in the wider world there is such a rhythm. Now, we can take a step toward informing people about the matter by noting that the rhythm really doesn't have a name or some such, but simply pointing out that the rhythm isn't actually named "karsilima" does nothing to add to this discussion. Really.
I'm happy to list the rhythm under a working name and append explanation that it really doesn't have a name. That's perfectly fine by me and I think it a good approach. If you have something to offer beyond that, I'm happy to hear it. Anything else is really a waste of time for the purposes of the lexicon. -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 4:46 PMThank you for doing this, Larry. -
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 11:10 PMsince a lot of this seems to be directed at me let me clarify my intentions in particular part of this so we can move on. i never asked nor insisted that anyone do anything about any rhythms or info i gave. you guys ask for names and what i call them and i told you. i also gave a small amount of relevant info about the rhythm as it pertains to where i live, which also happens to be one of the places this rhythm comes from. i know many people are interested in that info. if you're not interested, or the info isn't exactly what you're asking for, you're welcome to not use it. good luck with the compilation, let us know when you're ready for contributions for the second edition.
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Re: Lexicon: Karsilima
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 8:03 AMoh as far as the 'beat' kerfuffle, i found this stuff... just for fun... blame it on my slightly geeky slant... found it interesting.
it's either a beat, tactus, pulse, pulse group or meter! : ) i think beat is too general and is usually referring to the 1/4 or 1/8th note. 'pulse'(groups) and/or 'meter' seems right - maybe...? in any case, it's all pretty vague for all the terminology...
this all from wiki be:
Rhythm
Rhythm is the arrangement of sounds and silences in time. Meter animates time in regular pulse groupings, called measures or bars. The time signature or meter signature specifies how many beats are in a measure, and which value of written note is counted and felt as a single beat. Through increased stress and attack (and subtle variations in duration), particular tones may be accented. There are conventions in most musical traditions for a regular and hierarchical accentuation of beats to reinforce the meter. Syncopated rhythms are rhythms that accent unexpected parts of the beat. Playing simultaneous rhythms in more than one time signature is called polymeter. See also polyrhythm.
beat:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29
pulse:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_%28music%29
meter:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre_%28music%29
...more drummy
(boom boom)
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